Does a death or suicide need to be disclosed by a seller or a listing agent? I haven't been asked many times over the years, but it comes up every so often. What's Texas law?
Texas law states, in summary, that disclosure is only needed if the house caused the death. What does that mean? The biggest example always used is say a house was a known drug house. Someone got mad and did a drive-by shooting and someone died. Upon resale, the death would need to be disclosed because if word does not spread around the drug community that the house had been sold, the new owners might be at risk.
An example of where murder does not have to be disclosed is if there was a home invasion and the robbers tragically murdered the home owners. It could have been any house, so the house wouldn't remain in harms way.
Suicides and death by natural causes are not caused by the house and also do not have to be disclosed.
When I was 12, I lived in a haunted house. The little old lady slipped in the bathtub and drowned. This was not disclosed, not because we were just renting, but because it was an accident. The house didn't cause the death. When the agent was questioned, her response was, "That's Florence. She's really very nice, but just doesn't like when there are a lot of kids around." She would turn lights on in the master bedroom. She would move candles and turn pictures around. You would feel a gust of wind slamming a door after friends would leave.
Legally, Florence did not need to be disclosed and she wasn't... until asked. That's where there is a fine line. If an agent knows there was a death, murder, or suicide in a home that legally doesn't have to be disclosed, it must be disclosed if/when asked. As a licensed real estate agent, we cannot lie to a direct question like that.
Many people say it's best to disclose before the buyers find out from a neighbor. Possibly. I think it's a case by case situation. If there was huge news coverage and a known fact to the general public what happened, maybe it's best to advise the sellers to disclose. If it was something years ago and no one really pays attention, what's the point in mentioning it? Many people in older homes like to die peacefully in their own homes, and it would be ridiculous to have to disclose every natural cause death.
If you feel information like that would make you object to a house, I suggest you ask if the box on the seller's disclosure notice is marked as no. A listing agent cannot volunteer this information without explicit instructions by their seller or they could be considered hindering the sale and reveling confidential information.
**Are You Packed Yet?**
Donna Harris, REALTOR®
RE/MAX Austin Skyline
www.DonnaHomes.coma
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Austin TX Real Estate and the surrounding areas of Lakeway, Bee Cave, West Lake Hills, Cedar Park, Round Rock, Spicewood, Circle-C, Steiner Ranch, and everywhere in between... Hill Country Austin TX Real Estate and beyond. Whether you're buying or selling an Austin home, I'll be with you every step of the way.
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Copyright© 2010 By Donna Harris, All Rights Reserved. You may re-blog with links back to this post.
* Does Death in a Home have to be Disclosed? * was first published on donnahomesblog.com
If you have to ask yourself it's always best to disclose. Here in Ca. that's a huge material fact. You only have to disclose if it happened in the past few years but that doesn't matter if someone is sue happy.
Thanks for the post.
We have been in that stituation and went through a very similar thought process.
Laura, It's not up to "us". It's up to the sellers. All I can do is let them know the law if they ask me about it. I can't tell my sellers that they have to when it's not legally necessary, and I can't hinder their sale just because I personally feel it should be disclosed.
Gray, What did you end up doing?
Actually in California we have to disclose how many times have had a cold in the house over the past 3 years and if a fly was killed in the house how the flys body was disposed of (kidding but it seems that way)
Very tricky question, I'd rather have a seller disclose than be sued later.
Donna
Great post, In Florida we don't have to disclose a death or suicide.
Good luck and success.
Lou Ludwig
Donna! I just blogged about a customer asking if disclosure is needed for a haunted house!
This is a great post and I was just thinking about this very thing when I ran across your blog!
I kind of knew your answer to your disclosure question. As I remember it from RE school a long time ago. But for the life of me I could not remember the answer to mine...
Coming to you from Texas...
Doug, I've been killing scorpions and they don't count!
Ricki, But he would win in any lawsuit if he legally didn't have to disclose, so not sure why you think he should disclose to avoid a lawsuit.
Lou, What about murder?
Sussie, I would say no unless the house caused it...
Hi Donna... I have shown houses that I was convinced were haunted. I even told my buyers. They didn't believe me, but they also did not buy the house either.
Donna, great post and one that is often asked. Lou answered about Florida above, but if asked we also need to tell. Sometimes the old mantra disclose, disclose, disclose is a valid one.
Steve, I think it's also subjective to an extent. Some people are open to the subject and can sense those things, while others can't.
Gabe, Don't ask, don't tell!
Richard, But when there is a legal presidence saying disclosure is not necessary, representing the seller, I can't disclose without their permission, and as long as it's within the law, I have no issues with that. They will know I have to say something if asked.
Funny how agents think it's okay to lie about this subject simply because it doesn't have to be disclosed. Great post.. pushing for feature.
Greg, Definitely no lying involved when asked, just not volunteered information. Lying will get you no where except in a court room. Up front, nondisclosure when not required is very different.
Depends on your state's regulations. In Florida it is not required to disclose a death, suicide, past AIDS/HIV inhabitant, etc. By law agents are held harmless from non-disclosure. But here it is not a material fact. If an agent operates as a single agent for a seller in a fiduciary capacity, I would tread very little before disclosing any non-material fact that could hurt them. In our state that fiduciary responsibility includes confidentiality.
If you live in a northern state, it is likely that in most older homes, and there are many there, at some point in time, someone died in the home and perhaps the funeral was even held in the living room.
I have posted this question in several post in the past and it appears that it really does depend on each state's laws, regulations and case law. In New Hampshire death does not need to be disclosed unless specifically requested by the buyers.
Basically, it's whether or not a death in the property is deemed a material fact or not within your state laws. Your specific state determines what clearly are material facts that must be disclosed. Here's the thing, if a particular buyer is interested and specifically asks about deaths in the home and clearly states that the answer will affect their decision to buy or not, it HAS become a material fact to that buyer, and all material facts must be disclosed.
In Colorado we do not have to disclose anything that would psychologically stigmatize a property. I definitely would want to know that information if I was a buyer though. I think the buyers will find out everything from the neighbors anyway. I say that you never get into trouble by overdisclosure.
Hi Donna, In Florida is does not have to be dislcosed. I sold a house about 6 years ago that had a murder suicide in it. The family were long time customers of mine. The young daughters called me to sell the property after their father had killed their mother and then shot himself. The 3 daughters were ages 14, 17 and 22. The housa was all the parents left them. So I had to sell it for them at the best price I could get. We did not disclose the murder/suicide and were able to sell the house for $365,000.
I never heard from the buyers but was anticipating a call....it never came. 4 years later they were foreclosed on.
It was a very diffiuclt situation, These young girls were counting on me to help them out and I did.
I believe it should be disclosed, as they would find out anyway when they moved in.
In NY we do not have to disclose "stigmatized properties" Suicide, death or murder do not affect the physical structure of the property. However, the buyer can request that information in writing.
NY real estate law follows the basic theory of "Caveat Emptor" meaning "Let the Buyer Beware". The burden is on the buyer to do their due diligence on a property, not the seller or the seller's agent. A seller has no duty to speak when the parties deal at arms length.
The material fact is always best to disclose. Murder absolutely must be disclosed however. I tend to be cautious and tell the facts, then it doesn't come back to haunt me
Patricia/Seacoast NH
Donna,
You just have to love the wording of some of the wording in our Texas laws. I had one listing that I am sure the bright pink exterior pant nearly caused a death. It sure scared me when I saw it...
-Brent
Donna,
You are correct about the Texas Property Section 5.008 (C). Note that the TAR disclosure goes further and talks about unnatural death on the property.
Regardless, I can see a suit being filed over a stigmatized property.
Tom
I sold a house two years ago that had had a suicide in the master bedroom. Here in CA it is a big material fact and must be disclosed, and I told my buyers right up front. I probably wouldn't have been expected to know it, but the house had belonged to an agent in our office, and his wife was the suicide. He eventually lost the home to foreclosure. I actually didn't realize it had been his at first, though I knew the story, but one of the other agents in the office said, "Oh, that's X's house!". Once I knew, I also called the REO agent (thankfully a real person with real old-fashioned work habits and ethics). I did that primarily because so many people in town did know about it, it was bound to come out. It didn't matter in the long run, because my buyers were okay with it and bought it anyway.
Brent - love the bright killer pink! I've seen a few interiors that I would suspect might induce a coma or death!
Donna,
I went to a CE class a few years ago and a similar question came up. The student asked if we had to disclose that a graveyard was close to a property (not on the property). The instructor answered very clear and simple "if your client has told you they do not want to live near a graveyard, then that is an item you have to disclose" Basically his point was, it did not matter about what the law did or did not say if your client does not want to live in a home someone died in, close to a graveyard, or next to a creek...(whatever)...then you must disclose that the property you are showing does in fact have that issue.
I think it was sound advice! I also say "when in doubt disclose"
Thanks
Bill
Florida law (and I am not an attorney) holds us harmless if we do not disclose this since it is not required. Again, I reiterate, if you are acting as a single agent with fiducicary duties to your seller, you had better be darned sure that your seller approves of you disclosing this fact. Otherwise you are breaking the duty of confidentiality to your seller and may get sued, not by the buyer, but by the seller for saying something detrimental about his/her property. If in your state it is a material fact, then act accordingly. Here is it is not, and we cannot be sued because we did not disclose that a death, etc took place in a home.
Even today, many people prefer to die at home rather than in some impersonal hospital. Why should the surviving family be punished for this. If it is important to a buyer they can ask and if the seller wished to disclose it, fine. If not, such is life. In the end, the home is still the same building it was 10, 20, etc. years ago. The same could be said for people that are afraid of buying a home if someone had cancer while living there. Yes, there are still those who think you can catch it. HIV as well.
In the end, it is not my job to play to the irrational fears or prejudices of the buyers. In Florida, if the seller wants to disclose such a fact they can. But I am not going to do it on my own without their written permission. Sorry, the Amityville Horror scenario does not pull as much weight with me as it apparently does to others. I would hate to be the one to say "Sorry your son committed suicide. Oh, by the way, now I have to drop the price of your home by at least 50K to get someone to buy it." Hard to believe that some states still require irrational stimatization of properties to be disclosed. I would have thought Florida would have been lagging behind the rest of you.
Here is the Florida statute on this issue:
689.25 Failure to disclose homicide, suicide, deaths, or diagnosis of HIV or AIDS infection in an occupant of real property.--
(1)(a) The fact that an occupant of real property is infected or has been infected with human immunodeficiency virus or diagnosed with acquired immune deficiency syndrome is not a material fact that must be disclosed in a real estate transaction.
(b) The fact that a property was, or was at any time suspected to have been, the site of a homicide, suicide, or death is not a material fact that must be disclosed in a real estate transaction.
(2) A cause of action shall not arise against an owner of real property, his or her agent, an agent of a transferee of real property, or a person licensed under chapter 475 for the failure to disclose to the transferee that the property was or was suspected to have been the site of a homicide, suicide, or death or that an occupant of that property was infected with human immunodeficiency virus or diagnosed with acquired immune deficiency syndrome.
NOTE THE LAST PARAGRAPH AS IT APPLIES TO SELLERS AND THEIR AGENTS WHO DO NOT DISCLOSE THIS OTHERWISE IRRELEVANT FACT.
In CA, we have to disclose for any reason. I've got a new listing now where the prior owner passed away of natural causes... old age. There are many cultures who will not touch such a house.
Donna,
I actually had the reverse situation happen to me. A customer met me at a house and they arrived first, a neighbor spilled the story before I arrived of how the owner was murdered by his lover in his sleep, a pillow pulled over his head and his body disposed of in the woods. I stood there speechless! My buyer was more concerned about the structural issues than the murder, go figure!
Please keep in mind, my post is based on MY state of Texas. Yes, rules and regulations are different in every state. In Texas, disclosure, disclosure, disclosure will land you in a lawsuit faster than non-disclosure. If the seller is not legally bound to disclose, but as the listing agent, you take it upon yourself to disclose, your seller has every right to sue you for hindering the sale of his property.
It has nothing to do with what YOU think is right or what YOU think the buyer should know because the neighbors will talk. You have a fiduciary responsibility to the seller and if they aren't disclosing, you cannot... UNLESS the buyer specifically asks and then you cannot lie. If a buyer asks, you must tell them the truth.
As for the analogy of the graveyard, I interpret that differently. Your instructor was trying to tell you that if the buyer specifically asked not to be near a graveyard, you need to let them know, but if the buyer never says anything of the sort, it's not your responsibility to give a buyer a play by play of every street in the area. He has a car and can drive around and see what's around the corner. If it doesn't bother him, why hammer it in? Just because it would bother you?
Donna,
Wow what different points of view! I agree with you it is not up to the agent here is Texas it is up to the Seller's whether to disclose a death in the home that was not cause by the house. Great example of the "drug house' and great post.
Interesting read, Donna. I lead a sheltered life. :) Don't you just love the seller's disc. question that asks if the home is a meth lab?? Since when does a drug dealer disclose all?
After reading some of the other state laws, I am glad I live in TEXAS! Thanks for the post.
You're the first person to admit you lived in a haunted house! There's a big difference between TX and IL I'll tell ya. We have to disclose if the house was a drug house but not if someone was murdered in it. We don't have to tell anything really about the house in the haunting regard.
Weird circumstance in one of my listings: Was at an open house & we had a showing during that time frame. Lady is standing in the foyer & tells me she 'sees' the previous owner standing in the hallway & asks if she died here. I said no, they said she passed away in the hospital but she was sickly up until her death. Lady swore she was 'hovering' over me during the whole thing. That was a first for me! No wonder why I hate open houses LOL!
Spooky stuff Lyn! I hate open houses for other reasons but that's a good one.
Donna, here in Brampton, Ontario, Canada we have to disclose if someone dies in a house, it doesn't matter if the house was responsible or not. Must have been strange as a child to live in a home with a ghost! LOL! but interesting.
Donna, with time the news of the "incident" can fade too from the neighbors, but unless unlawful, disclose everything you know, and just let the buyer decide.
If a buyer asks, I can still not tell them without the permission of the sellers. That does not seem to be clear. I can ask the seller for permission to tell the buyer, but cannot do it, even if asked since that could violate my fiduciary duties to the sellers. Since here we do not consider it to be a material fact in Florida, that is the way it has to be. If the buyers are not satisfied with the sellers' decision, they are free to move on to another home.
About the only way to guarantee that no one has died in a home is to purchase a brand new home. Even then I suppose a workman could have died there. And imagine the extreme case of having a condo unit and someone died in the unit next door or upstairs.
In the end, none of this should affect the value of a home and it unfairly hurts the sellers who are not a fault in any way. Thankfully I have only been asked once if someone died in a home and the seller gave me permission to assure them that the answer was no. But in a retirement state there will be many occasions when someone has either died or nearly died in a home. Until someone finds a way to thwart death, those of you in states where you have to disclose this fact will continue to wrangle with it. I do feel sorry for your sellers though.
Yolanda, Thank you.
Sonja, Exactly! But it's also for sellers after the fact because of the example I gave earlier about drive-bys and a potentially angry druggy not knowing the house was sold. Plus, Meth is hazardous to your health.
Tracy, You're welcome!
Lyn, It was weird, but we were only there a year. The house is close to where my mom currently lives, so every time I drive by, I wonder if the owners know.
Sara, I don't do Open houses either!
A & P, Different states and countries have very different laws!
Gary, Unlawful meaning the seller has given permission for the disclosure, right?
Sonny, You're completely off topic. We're not talking about matieral defects or material facts about a property. We're talking about death, murder, and suicide. COMPLETELY different. If a seller were to hide a foundation issue or mold issue, of course the buyers have legal recourse. That is not at all what we're talking about, and it's not something that can just be disclosed because you think the neigbors will talk.
John, Many people don't get it, but as long as they understand it for their own state, they'll stay out of court... otherwise, I hope they have some good E&O...
Wisconsin law says that agents have no duty to disclose; it does not mention sellers.
Hi Donna. As John in Comment #41 already mentioned those of us in Florida are not required by law to disclose if there was a death in a home. For me I would want to know so I can understand why some buyers want to know too.
I think if the buyer asks - you should tell the truth. However, in an old home - one might not know for sure! People died at home at the time in years gone by. Nowadays they tend to die in the hospital. Both of my parents were fortunate enough to die in their own homes - and were spared that last trip to the hospital.
Donna: I swear, these questions will be the death of me yet!
Disclose, disclose, disclose. I would hate to be wondering after a sale whether I was soon going to be getting a phone call from the buyers or their lawyer once they found out a house's recent history.
I believe the California law is a death on the property of any cause must be disclosed if occurring in the past 3 years, or when directly questioned by the buyers. The cause of death need not be disclosed if it was AIDS.
I had a sale a few years ago where the death was in the garden, and not in the house. I believe my research found that was not a mandatory disclosure, but I could be wrong...
Hi, Donna. I know you said "Texas", but as a Florida Broker, let me chime in anyway...
I have been approached about listing a house where a dramatic murder-suicide occurred (made the TV news and the local paper a couple of years ago).
Even as a transaction broker with limited confidentiality, even with the knowledge of Florida Statutes 689.25 (see John Elwell's reply #28), I will get a written opinion from my attorney before agreeing to list this house.
This happened in a home that I had owned and my choice was to disclose up front as the Listing Agent and years later to disclose up front as a Buyer's Agent on the same home.
In Maryland we don't have to disclose. . but I wish there was a more uniform disclosure law in a national level.
Donna, here in Virginia it does not have to be disclosed. If asked, I would not lie to the buyer.
I never thought that horror movie plot details would get such a interesting discussion on Active Rain!! Donna, thank you...this was a VERY interesting morning read.
In Ontario, some do and some don't. There is no obligation on the part of the agent unless it is considered a marterial fact, in which case, then it becomes a matter of opinion.
This was always a big discussion in licensing class. It is interesting how the rules vary by state. As Mitchell correctly stated, New York is a caveat emptor state and it therefore does not have to be disclosed.
This is an interesting topic! I'm glad it got featured.
In California you're required to disclose any deaths in the last three years, regardless of cause. However, as a matter of course, I recommend disclosing ANY deaths regardless of when they occurred. May buyers have an issue with any death in a house and not disclosing could be an issue.
Yes, it's very interesting to see the laws varying by state. It still concerns me with the comments people are making that "it's best to disclose", and AGAIN, it's not best to disclose if your seller client has instructed you not to disclose, and your state laws say they legally don't have to. It's NOT up to you, it's up to them.
Does this post need to lead to another one about Fiduciary Responsibilities to your clients??
Donna, I completely agree with your last comment. There another post featured today about disclose or not disclose and of course many agents are in there saying "disclose, disclose, disclose!" I truly don't get that way of thinking.
What if.....my seller was dieing of cancer and wanted to sell her house so she could spend the last months of her life traveling. This certainly affects the value of the property. But I doubt anyone would agree that this needs to be disclosed. I don't see how this is any different than a house with a murder, suicide or other crime.
As long as it's legal it's the sellers choice and only the sellers choice whether or not to disclose. It's not a gray area.
If agents don't understand this stuff the consumer doesn't have a chance in hell of getting a fair shake.
Bryant, That's what I was trying to stress, but many people don't get it. Yes, we're taught to disclose, disclose, disclose, but that's for the things we're supposed to disclose, not the things that we're not supposed to!
Hi Donna - In our state we have to disclose any in the past three years. However, the attorneys I know all say the same thing, if a seller has knowledge of something that COULD materially affect the value of the property, they MUST disclose it. So, even if the death was further back that the law requires, a buyer might have a case is the seller withheld a fact.
In those cases, I'll recommend disclosure but I won't do it myself. It isn't up to me to do it. So, I'm agreeing with you that we shouldn't disclose information we're not privy to but it is important to remind our clients of the consequences if they knowingly hid something.
In AZ, deaths and homicides to not have to be disclosed.
Regarding the proximity of a graveyard, some cultures have traditions that prohibit nearness to a graveyard. I think I was told that if the graveyard was visible from the property, regardless of distance, that was too close.